tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6315333410007118561.post4008963119186323428..comments2024-03-15T00:52:20.774-07:00Comments on The Dragon's Orb: Myth - why people flip from kote gaeshiErik the Strangehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/14719361294346916751noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6315333410007118561.post-83812600676146124262011-09-02T00:44:40.479-07:002011-09-02T00:44:40.479-07:00Have you tried looking at the ukemi as an escape o...Have you tried looking at the ukemi as an escape or reversal technique?Kibutanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03473282144357256243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6315333410007118561.post-35741556722092201862011-08-28T12:15:45.283-07:002011-08-28T12:15:45.283-07:00In YMAA-style chin na we had something called &quo...In YMAA-style chin na we had something called "turning around heaven and earth" which is essentially kotegaeshi. We did not flip. We dropped to our knee (or face first) and tapped. There is a point where your wrist is screwed but I'm not sure flipping will save it.BSMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13599662252662686373noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6315333410007118561.post-82916039882332655492011-08-22T07:56:20.215-07:002011-08-22T07:56:20.215-07:00My experience is that if kotegaeshi is thrown, you...My experience is that if kotegaeshi is thrown, you cannot avoid an airfall and the trained response is to keep from being landed on top of your head, which is the intention of the throw. That said, MOST people do not "throw" kotegaeshi, therefore I do not take (ie, give) an airfall. <br /><br />My understanding is there should be a forward element in the throw, almost like leading the trailing shoulder into it, rather than throwing to the side, down the line of the step and leading shoulder, which gives uke the choice of sitting or colluding in the flip.<br /><br />One issue is that most people throw (ie, apply) kotegaeshi on the down step, which encourages the sit-out. Some of the old-timers throw on the body rise, which encourages air time. I was taught throwing in the 17 on the foot strike, which would be drop, and on the rise in the big ten. However, the throw has been taught on the rise in the 17 as well.<br /><br />I have read Daito-ryu people who say there is NO throwing in Aikido, only attacks to the joints, and the airfalls are trained responses to avoid damage and pain. My reaction was that these people had never really been thrown. Most Aikido people have never experienced good judo tachi-waza, of which there is rarely any question of collusion. Perhaps one could identify the judo throw closest in mechanics, analyze why that works in a contested situation, then apply that to the wrist connection.Jack Bielerhttp://www.dentonaikido.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6315333410007118561.post-13027009190744745082011-08-20T06:16:29.664-07:002011-08-20T06:16:29.664-07:00I disagree Bednar,
You only want to turn out if th...I disagree Bednar,<br />You only want to turn out if they do not have the true intent to hurt you, as when you unfold your wrist to a backfall they can continue to attack you even easier as your now at their feet/knee level.<br />If your real aim is to hurt me I WILL NOT fold around to a back fall so you can kick me as well. I will start a forward roll and Take your arm with me so I am in a better position than before. If you have proper ukemi there is not difference between concrete and mat.Jeff Duncanhttp://www.fullcircleaikido.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6315333410007118561.post-73256687587326477552011-08-19T15:43:28.465-07:002011-08-19T15:43:28.465-07:00You are correct that people need not take high fal...You are correct that people need not take high falls from kotegaeishi. It's nice to hear some honesty. I think many times, it's lazier and easier on the wrist and because there is a mat on the ground why not. Parking lot is a different story. Nobody on the street is going to flip into the air unless you drive your hip through. And that's assuming you can pull off a wrist lock in the first place.N. Bednarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6315333410007118561.post-31723553947397439372011-08-17T18:23:38.944-07:002011-08-17T18:23:38.944-07:00Why do people flip out of the technique? Because m...Why do people flip out of the technique? Because most people don't execute the technique well. And indeed, to prevent damage to my wrist, I would flip out of the technique in a heartbeat to release the tension being cranked into the joint. That said, it is possible to apply kotegaeshi without cranking the wrist by creating a connection to uke's center; using it to misalign their structure; and following that misalignment with tai otoshi to collapse their structure. When done this way, uke's normal response is a backfall. And indeed, this is the way we teach it.Ashhttp://bayareashodokan.orgnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6315333410007118561.post-18181325825681202192011-08-16T19:46:07.837-07:002011-08-16T19:46:07.837-07:00Personally I think that the zenpo kaiten ukemi is ...Personally I think that the zenpo kaiten ukemi is a way of being able to put yourself in a better position (possible kaeshiwaza)than one of being on your back and able to be kicked, especially if you are able to take a small piece of him with you... it doesn't have to be the huge dramatic deal most make it out to be (and yes I will do this with you on concrete as I personally do practice in the rocky terrain and would like a nice smooth mat of asphalt instead) <br /> The other side of this coin is one of which the real question is what is your definition of Ukemi? Is it the practice of putting yourself in a better position, or is it simply one of being able to flip yourself about?Jeff Duncanhttp://www.fullcircleaikido.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6315333410007118561.post-52386867739474275082011-08-16T18:13:57.861-07:002011-08-16T18:13:57.861-07:00Yes, the aikido uke is in collusion with shite. Fl...Yes, the aikido uke is in collusion with shite. Flipping is one way out. A part of the practice is to "make harmony" between shite and uke and doing the beautiful forward breakfall is part of it. <br /><br />From a purely pragmatic application by shite, the extreme would be to drive uke's hand/wrist into the ground and make him fall over your hip or leg to boot!Rick Matzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09699550034693340637noreply@blogger.com